gelbes_gilatier (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
gelbes_gilatier) wrote2010-07-17 03:59 am
gelbes_gilatier) wrote2010-07-17 03:59 am
Entry tags:
Meta fandom and nationality.
After watching several minor and major fails and catastrophies of various topics (LGBT, race, gender...) and the discussion of privilege and non-privilege and whatnot unfold in the last few weeks, I'm finally starting to realize what's bothering me so much about it:
The overwhelming American dominance and the almost automatic assumption that what's considered privilege and what has to be considered as fail is the American definition of it. It's an almost unchallenged preset that we're all talking about what constitutes a gender fail or a race fail and also a LGBT fail by American standards and that everyone should just discuss it under those presets.
And yes, this is bothering me because I'm not American and I'm not even a native speaker of English and yes, for me it's sometimes pretty hard to understand why something constitutes a fail. Race, for example, has a whole different meaning for us Germans. We don't even like to use that word. We're way more comfortable with "ethnic background" for example because our grandparents used the word "Rasse" (which is a direct translation of the English word race) as something connected with industrialized mass murder and a World War and it probably will forever be etched into our minds like that.
We're also very sensitive to race in general, just probably not in the way that Americans are. Yes, I know I'm starting to sound redundant but please take in account here that Germany is the country that started and lost two World Wars and the country that perfected industrial mass murder, only a little more than 65 years ago. This thing shaped our country and our national mentality more than any other event ever has (it's even going so far that left-wing activists see nothing wrong with tearing down a German flag that was hung up by a family of Near-Eastern immigrants/first generation Germans during the World Cup). We're so oversensitive about our Nazi past that we get scared by German flags being put up on display during events like the World Cup and by people wearing black-red-golden leis around their necks.
So the thing we're most afraid of is being called a Nazi (unless one actually is one... BTW, here in Germany, being a Nazi and showing it is a crime... you can get arrested for wearing a Swastika or showing the Hitler salute in public... no, I'm not kidding you, we don't take this lightly here) which is why we also try to find lots of correct names for people who come from an ethnic background other than "white" (which, by the way is not a category we use - we rather think in national backgrounds than skin color, like "the Turks" or "the Russians") but which is also why we don't like to address this specifically in fics or such.
I never specifically said any of the characters in my stories are of color not because I automatically assume everyone in my stories is Caucasian but because I don't see a reason to specifcally state that (since if you automatically assume all my characters are Caucasian, it's your problem, not mine) and I don't like to make a fuss about that particular topic, also because of my national heritage... something that American people like to dismiss way too easily in not even assuming their opposite could be of another nationality and therefore have a completely different upbringing.
Another thing is LGBT... in Germany, the usual approach is now "Who cares?" It's different with my parents' generation but my generation and most of all the generations coming after us grew up with top ranking politicians being openly gay (the mayors of Berlin and Hamburg for example, or our current Foreign Minister) and top media people being openly gay (for example Anne Will, one of the leading ladies in the business of high profile political talk shows). At first their coming out caused a minor sensation but after about a week it wasn't like "Oh my God, Wowereit can't be mayor of the national capital because he's gay!" but "Is he good enough a politician to battle all the issues the conservatives left for him?" and his sexuality never was an issue regarding his political skills.
There's also no such thing as DADT in the Bundeswehr (which of course doesn't mean gay soldiers aren't being discriminated against by their fellow soldiers but at least they aren't kicked out, simply for being gay) or any other government institution. There's a national law that allows gay people kind of getting married (heterosexual marriages still hold a number of privileges but I'm pretty sure that will change) and homosexuality lost its general "EWWW!"-appeal ages ago.
So yes, maybe for you Americans I'm discussing LGBT issues from a privileged position... but did you just once think about the fact that I may come from a country that doesn't make such a big fuss about it anymore? It's more like "Oh, hey, jeder nach seiner Facon, ne." ("Everyone can live after their own fashion." - you may also know it as "To each their own." but I have an inner barrier to use that sentence... every half-way educated German knows that "Jedem das Seine" (which is the direct translation) is what you'll find at the gates of Buchenwald, just as you'll find "Arbeit macht frei" ("Work sets you free") at the gates of Auschwitz) here than "Oh, this is really such a general problem." I'm not saying LGBT persons aren't discriminated against here, they still are on multiple levels. But I never got called on for speaking from a privileged position by a German LGBT person and I did some pro-LGBT political work while I was still active (so I had a lot to do with persons who see themselves as LGBT).
We don't inquire and we don't make a fuss about it because we a) think that sexuality is something very private and one shouldn't pry and b) that it shouldn't be our primary cursor to judge character (exemplary conversation between my mom and I: "Have you heard? Robbie Williams is probably gay." - me: "Yeah... so?" - my mom: "Oh, right. Doesn't matter for his singing, anyway."). This is why I think any SGA character's sexuality shouldn't be of an issue to the show (well, along with the fact that yes, it does reek a lot like a publicity stunt to do it now instead of actually addressing it within the show and its five Seasons but that's another story)... because for us it's irrelevant to the achievments of a character. I don't know any German LGBT person who likes being judged by or for their sexuality in any way, and that also includes automatically being an "underprivileged person". In fact, most of them resent always being made into victims with this.
So you know what... if you're American and you're trying to tell me I'm speaking from a privileged position, no matter what the issue is... maybe next time you'll try not to speak from your privileged position as the dominant nation in nearly every major (and a lot of minor) fandoms (and meta fandom). It's something that's rarely, if never addressed (I recently saw a posting by someone from Norway regarding this that I was so thankful for but unfortunately, I lost the link before I could bookmark it) and yes, it's starting to bug me. There are differences between our views of the world and just because I'm from Germany it doesn't make them any less valid.
Also, and this my last word on it, you Americans might all want to rethink your usage of the word "Nazi" in international context (and yes, that includes fandom). It's a real insult here because here it doesn't stand for an anal-retentive person but for someone who supported, supports or would have supported industrialized mass murder... not something anyone of you would like to be affiliated with, is it? Like I said before, we don't take kindly to anything related to that issue and most of all we don't find it funny (which is why The Sun's headlines before the England vs. Germany game in the WC caused a minor uproar here). We're very self-conscious about how the world views us and we're very eager to please and to see that we don't come across as Nazis. We'd be kind of thankful if you wouldn't all throw around that term as carelessly as you often enough do.
And now go and defriend me if you like.
ETA: If anyone of you is really interested in what constitutes being a German, have a look at the Meet The Germans project of the Goethe-Institut London. Also, now I'd love to know if there are similiar projects by Spanish, English, French, American, Canadian, Guamaltecan or whatever other nation's institutions. Anyone can tell me anything about it?
ETA II: Now that I submitted the link to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
fandomnews: Just be aware of the fact that I don't tolerate any flaming whatsoever here. I reserve the right to freeze and/or delete comments. And everyone try to read your comment again before posting it, to see if you're still caught up in your nationality privilege (i.e. seeing everything the way you're used to and not even taking in account that this could be seen as offense by persons of a different nationality).
I'm really tired of having to tolerate and adapt to the views of people from other nationalities when apparently a number of those people don't take care to at least tolerate and respect that I have a number of different views because I come from a different national background. It's really not that hard. I've been doing that since I became active in fandom. If I can do it, you can do it, too.
The overwhelming American dominance and the almost automatic assumption that what's considered privilege and what has to be considered as fail is the American definition of it. It's an almost unchallenged preset that we're all talking about what constitutes a gender fail or a race fail and also a LGBT fail by American standards and that everyone should just discuss it under those presets.
And yes, this is bothering me because I'm not American and I'm not even a native speaker of English and yes, for me it's sometimes pretty hard to understand why something constitutes a fail. Race, for example, has a whole different meaning for us Germans. We don't even like to use that word. We're way more comfortable with "ethnic background" for example because our grandparents used the word "Rasse" (which is a direct translation of the English word race) as something connected with industrialized mass murder and a World War and it probably will forever be etched into our minds like that.
We're also very sensitive to race in general, just probably not in the way that Americans are. Yes, I know I'm starting to sound redundant but please take in account here that Germany is the country that started and lost two World Wars and the country that perfected industrial mass murder, only a little more than 65 years ago. This thing shaped our country and our national mentality more than any other event ever has (it's even going so far that left-wing activists see nothing wrong with tearing down a German flag that was hung up by a family of Near-Eastern immigrants/first generation Germans during the World Cup). We're so oversensitive about our Nazi past that we get scared by German flags being put up on display during events like the World Cup and by people wearing black-red-golden leis around their necks.
So the thing we're most afraid of is being called a Nazi (unless one actually is one... BTW, here in Germany, being a Nazi and showing it is a crime... you can get arrested for wearing a Swastika or showing the Hitler salute in public... no, I'm not kidding you, we don't take this lightly here) which is why we also try to find lots of correct names for people who come from an ethnic background other than "white" (which, by the way is not a category we use - we rather think in national backgrounds than skin color, like "the Turks" or "the Russians") but which is also why we don't like to address this specifically in fics or such.
I never specifically said any of the characters in my stories are of color not because I automatically assume everyone in my stories is Caucasian but because I don't see a reason to specifcally state that (since if you automatically assume all my characters are Caucasian, it's your problem, not mine) and I don't like to make a fuss about that particular topic, also because of my national heritage... something that American people like to dismiss way too easily in not even assuming their opposite could be of another nationality and therefore have a completely different upbringing.
Another thing is LGBT... in Germany, the usual approach is now "Who cares?" It's different with my parents' generation but my generation and most of all the generations coming after us grew up with top ranking politicians being openly gay (the mayors of Berlin and Hamburg for example, or our current Foreign Minister) and top media people being openly gay (for example Anne Will, one of the leading ladies in the business of high profile political talk shows). At first their coming out caused a minor sensation but after about a week it wasn't like "Oh my God, Wowereit can't be mayor of the national capital because he's gay!" but "Is he good enough a politician to battle all the issues the conservatives left for him?" and his sexuality never was an issue regarding his political skills.
There's also no such thing as DADT in the Bundeswehr (which of course doesn't mean gay soldiers aren't being discriminated against by their fellow soldiers but at least they aren't kicked out, simply for being gay) or any other government institution. There's a national law that allows gay people kind of getting married (heterosexual marriages still hold a number of privileges but I'm pretty sure that will change) and homosexuality lost its general "EWWW!"-appeal ages ago.
So yes, maybe for you Americans I'm discussing LGBT issues from a privileged position... but did you just once think about the fact that I may come from a country that doesn't make such a big fuss about it anymore? It's more like "Oh, hey, jeder nach seiner Facon, ne." ("Everyone can live after their own fashion." - you may also know it as "To each their own." but I have an inner barrier to use that sentence... every half-way educated German knows that "Jedem das Seine" (which is the direct translation) is what you'll find at the gates of Buchenwald, just as you'll find "Arbeit macht frei" ("Work sets you free") at the gates of Auschwitz) here than "Oh, this is really such a general problem." I'm not saying LGBT persons aren't discriminated against here, they still are on multiple levels. But I never got called on for speaking from a privileged position by a German LGBT person and I did some pro-LGBT political work while I was still active (so I had a lot to do with persons who see themselves as LGBT).
We don't inquire and we don't make a fuss about it because we a) think that sexuality is something very private and one shouldn't pry and b) that it shouldn't be our primary cursor to judge character (exemplary conversation between my mom and I: "Have you heard? Robbie Williams is probably gay." - me: "Yeah... so?" - my mom: "Oh, right. Doesn't matter for his singing, anyway."). This is why I think any SGA character's sexuality shouldn't be of an issue to the show (well, along with the fact that yes, it does reek a lot like a publicity stunt to do it now instead of actually addressing it within the show and its five Seasons but that's another story)... because for us it's irrelevant to the achievments of a character. I don't know any German LGBT person who likes being judged by or for their sexuality in any way, and that also includes automatically being an "underprivileged person". In fact, most of them resent always being made into victims with this.
So you know what... if you're American and you're trying to tell me I'm speaking from a privileged position, no matter what the issue is... maybe next time you'll try not to speak from your privileged position as the dominant nation in nearly every major (and a lot of minor) fandoms (and meta fandom). It's something that's rarely, if never addressed (I recently saw a posting by someone from Norway regarding this that I was so thankful for but unfortunately, I lost the link before I could bookmark it) and yes, it's starting to bug me. There are differences between our views of the world and just because I'm from Germany it doesn't make them any less valid.
Also, and this my last word on it, you Americans might all want to rethink your usage of the word "Nazi" in international context (and yes, that includes fandom). It's a real insult here because here it doesn't stand for an anal-retentive person but for someone who supported, supports or would have supported industrialized mass murder... not something anyone of you would like to be affiliated with, is it? Like I said before, we don't take kindly to anything related to that issue and most of all we don't find it funny (which is why The Sun's headlines before the England vs. Germany game in the WC caused a minor uproar here). We're very self-conscious about how the world views us and we're very eager to please and to see that we don't come across as Nazis. We'd be kind of thankful if you wouldn't all throw around that term as carelessly as you often enough do.
And now go and defriend me if you like.
ETA: If anyone of you is really interested in what constitutes being a German, have a look at the Meet The Germans project of the Goethe-Institut London. Also, now I'd love to know if there are similiar projects by Spanish, English, French, American, Canadian, Guamaltecan or whatever other nation's institutions. Anyone can tell me anything about it?
ETA II: Now that I submitted the link to
fandomnews: Just be aware of the fact that I don't tolerate any flaming whatsoever here. I reserve the right to freeze and/or delete comments. And everyone try to read your comment again before posting it, to see if you're still caught up in your nationality privilege (i.e. seeing everything the way you're used to and not even taking in account that this could be seen as offense by persons of a different nationality). I'm really tired of having to tolerate and adapt to the views of people from other nationalities when apparently a number of those people don't take care to at least tolerate and respect that I have a number of different views because I come from a different national background. It's really not that hard. I've been doing that since I became active in fandom. If I can do it, you can do it, too.
no subject
I think the main difference between the German (and probably European but I don't want to speak for any other country since cultural differences between European countries are probably graver than cultural differences between for example federal American states) way of thinking and the American way of thinking is that we kind of skip the whole self-evaluation thing (like, you know, "I'm a German without a migration background, I'm middle class, I'm East German, I'm a woman, I'm from an urban background...").
The privileges thing baffles us and would for example make us go "What does me being a German without migration background have to do with recognizing that not inviting someone to a job interview because they look like or their name sounds like they're of Turkish descend is wrong? Why do I have to acknowledge that I don't have a migration background first when I know full well that stereotyping is bad without it? Huh?"
Or "Why do I have to acknowledge I'm straight to be able to recognize gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples? This is the 21st century, of course I know that family and love are possible with all kinds of constellations. What does my sexual orientation have to do with that?"
We just take it as a given that not treating people who are equal equally is wrong, no matter where we stand. Well, mostly... at least we've come far enough that men are able to recognize that the fact that women still make 25% less than men on average in their wages is a bad thing without first having to point out to them that this is a problem for the whole of society, not just for women.
There's still a lot of discrimination on various levels and of various groups but apparently, we kind of skip the whole consious self-assessment of where we stand before pointing out a discrimination. Maybe that's really the biggest difference.
no subject
Because you being a German without a migration background may mean you don't think about the Turkish guy not getting a job interview and why he doesn't. Because me being straight may mean I don't think about non-straight people not getting representation in pop culture and why that happens.
The privilege discussion is not about giving you a right or ability to address an injustice. It's about getting you to look beyond your experience to see injustices that don't affect you. You have to know that there's a problem before you can do anything about it. In my own experience, I have found that it's really easy to not see problems if you're not making an effort to see what others are experiencing.
no subject
Yes but... I know that not inviting people to a job interview because their name sounds Turkish or Russian or whatever else is wrong. And I know that without ever having had gone through the whole "I'm German without a migration background etc." thing. No one ever explicitely told me that this makes me privileged and I didn't have to "find out" that in order to judge what's discriminating and what isn't.
I also don't have to tell myself (or have anyone else have to tell me that either) that being supposedly straight makes me privileged to see that gay marriages have to have 100% the same rights that mixed-gender marriages (or just any couples, gay or straight, married or not married) have. I know that instictively because I was brought up to believe in the equality of all human beings, no matter their ethnic background, gender, sexual orientation, whatever and that also enables me to see when people that should be treated equally aren't treated equally, without having to see who's privileged and who's not.
Empathy (which, in the end is what the whole privileges thing is about if I got that right?) was part of that education as well (my mom really likes the Native American saying "Don't judge a man before you've walked a mile in his moccasins." and I guess she tried to bring us up that way), so it's nothing strange to me and I know why it's so important to you (in fact, I usually am one of the biggest advocates of "Just because Americans don't think like you, it doesn't make their way of thinking any less valid. They have a different upbringing and they have different ways of discussing issues. Just different, not less valid." whenever the topic of Americans always trying to make everyone see the world from their - and only their - perspective comes up).
However... recently I feel myself growing tired of trying to walk in American moccasins because even after years of doing it they don't really fit and all wearing them does is make my proverbial feet hurt. I keep wishing that just for once... Americans would try to wear my moccasins.
No offense, but I still have the feeling you're wearing your American moccasins and you're trying to make me keep wearing American moccassins that don't fit really well. As
This what the whole posting is about: asking Americans to wear the moccassins of the people from other nations they're talking to, at least for a mile. Nothing else.
(and now I promise I won't ever wear any other figure of speech out like I just wore out the moccassins...)