I can haz writing meta feminist rage?

[gelbes_gilatier]

First, let me say something: I know I have slashers in my flist and before I get to the core of the issue here, I'd like to say that I respect you and your writing very much, mostly because you're awesome people and because you have a very deep and reflective stance towards writing slash and because, as far as I know, when you write boy slash you don't make the mistake of eliminating all and every female character from your stories (have I ever told you how much I love you for making Laura Cadman a very important person for your Lorne, bluflamingo or how much I love your writing because so many of your Newcomers are women, despite the series having heavy slashy under- and overtones, scherryzade? ;)). The following text is in no way meant to insult you or belittle your writing. Still... I had to write it.

Because, see, today I discovered a very long article (as in, a whole page) on slashers in the German major (left-leaning) newspaper Berliner Zeitung and because I was overjoyed to see that such an established and important newspaper took a look at fanfiction and even gave it a whole page, I started to read it... only to start frowning after about three phrases.

It wasn't really the usual "Those people are nuts and we don't really know what to do with them but someone said we have to do an article on them." attitude because they really tried not to let it show. It also wasn't the fact that they chose to portray a 55 year old female teacher who writes RPF slash (Viggo Mortensen and Sean Bean, in case anyone is interested) and makes money with writing gay porn books (publishing them under a male pseudonym, by the way), although yes, I do find RPF pretty yucky. No, what really got to me was that further down, she tried to sell writing gay porn as something feminist. She didn't actually use the word but this quote pretty much says it:

"Würde eine derart große Subkultur von Männern entstehen, würde das niemals ignoriert. Aber wir? Offensichtlich hält man uns für frustrierte Hausfrauen mittleren Alters, die für Schauspieler schwärmen. Natürlich, die sind auch dabei, aber gleichzeitig erleben wir eine Revolution weiblicher Sexualität." Lena kommt richtig in Fahrt: "Unsere Foren sind die einzigen Räume, in denen Pornografie von Frauen für Frauen entsteht. Für alle Frauen, für Frauen jedes Alters, für Frauen aus allen sozialen Schichten, für Frauen jeglicher sexuellen Ausrichtung. Gemeinsam und international produzieren wir Pornografie."*

*"If there were such a big subculture of men, it would never be ignored. But us? Obviously, they only think we're frustrated middle-aged house wives who have a crush on actors. Of course we also have those but at the same time we experience a revolution of female sexuality." Lena starts to become passionate, "Our message boards are the only places were pornography by women for women is created. For all women, women of every age, women from all social classes, for women of all sexual preferences. Together and internationally, we produce pornography."

While I have to agree with her about the female dominance in fanfiction and the consequences, I really disagree about women writing gay pornography as a revolution of female sexuality. I'm not a slasher and I don't read (boy) slash, mostly because I don't see sense in reading fiction that virtually has no women in it, be it porn or other. What's feminist about writing gay porn books under male pseudonyms because otherwise they would never find a publisher? Maybe she doesn't have a problem with it because according to herself, she has a "gay side to her personality" (she's happily married to man and has two daughters and never would call herself a lesbian) but yes, I do.

So... maybe of you could explain to me why it's a great thing for a women to write gay porn under a male pseudonym. Most of all, if the publisher's condidtions are as the following:

Ein Verleger hat ihr einmal die Personen aufgelistet, die in ihren Romanen nicht vorkommen dürfen: Frauen, ältere und alte Männer sowie Transvestiten. Als Lenas Fantasieheld Viggo sich vor dem Sex mit seinem Geliebten Sean einmal ein Kleid überzieht, muss sie dafür kämpfen, dass ihr der Lektor diese Passage nicht streicht.*

*A publisher once listed all persons to her that are not allowed to appear in her books: women, older or old men and transvestites. When Lena's fantasy hero Viggo put on a dress before having sex with his lover Sean, she had to put up a fight that her editor wouldn't eliminate that passage.

(And yes, it also made me go WTF that apparently, you can make money with thinly veiled RPF slash)

Also, this passage made me, a strictly het writer (although even I apparently managed to write a story with strong slashy undertones, or at least that's what one of the readrers's thought... that very nicely illustrated the whole "if you publish a story, it's not your own anymore" to me ;)) frown very, very much:

Die amerikanische Slash-Autorin Dorothy-Rose Devereaux sagt: "Slash bedient sich der männlichen Figuren nur, weil Frauen in der Fiktion mit Männern keinen Sex auf Augenhöhe haben könne, weil ihnen da alle möglichen Rollenmuster dazwischenkommen." In einer Studie zur Slash-Literatur heißt es: "Die homosexuelle Beziehung steht stellvertretend für eine idealisierte heterosexuelle Beziehung, in der gegenseitiger Respekt, Freundschaft und Verständnis für die Wahl des Partners wichtiger sind als das Geschlecht."*

*The American slash author Dorothy-Rose Devereaux says, "Slash only uses male characters because women in fiction can't have sex with men at eye level because all kinds of role patterns come between them." In a study to slash literature it is said, "The homosexual relationship stands for an idealized heterosexual relationship, in which mutual respect, friendship and understanding are more important for choosing your partner than gender."

What the. I don't even. Argh.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is wrong on so many levels? Women can't have sex at eye level in fiction? Never, ever? Never, ever, ever? And the best method to solve this problem is that we eradicate women from fiction? There are no heterosexual relationships in fiction where "mutual respect, friendship and understanding are more important than gender"? Also... the homosexual relationship solely as a substitute for an idealized heterosexual relationship? Isn't this like... wrong (as in "fundamentally and so very much that I don't even have words for it" wrong)? Does this make sense to anyone here?

And then of course the very last paragraph that revealed much more about that woman than everything before:

"Frauen feiern gemeinsam nicht nur ihre zärtliche Hingabe, sondern auch ihre wilde, erobernde, triumphierende Lust am Mann", sagt Lena. Als sie diesen Satz sagt, streckt sie den Rücken, wird ganz groß auf ihrem Stuhl. Da sitzt sie nun stolz zwischen all den Männern, die ihr ganz unbekannt sind und doch so vertraut. Die möglicherweise ihre Geschichten lesen, ohne ihre Geschichte zu kennen. "Vielleicht", sagt Lena und schaut sich noch einmal um, "ist das alles auch meine Rache am Mann."*

*"Together, women don't only celebrate their tender devotion, but also their wild, conquering, triumphant desire of men," says Lena. When she says this phrase, sie straightens her back, becomes tall on the chair. There she's sitting proudly among men whom she doesn't know but who are still so familiar to her. Who probably read her stories without knowing her story. "Maybe," Lena says and takes another look around, "it's just my revenge on men."

Right. Uh-huh. First of all: how are women supposed to celebrate something without having a female reference point in the story? That was always something I never understood and maybe one of you can explain that apparently women aren't important for a story or - even worse - are actually source of irritation because ew, they always automatically mean gender stereotypes and heteronormative role patterns in stories is a reason to celebrate. Second: RPF boy slash as a means of revenge? Whoa, someone really has issues here (and no, just for once, it's not me).

And, finally, why this is aggravating me so much: because this isn't just a minor internet message board article that won't reach that many persons anyway but a one page article in a major newspaper in a city with approximately 4 million inhabitants (and a national capital, at that) that has a print run of about 160.000 copies per day and an estimated readership of roughly 0.4 million people. 'Nuff said?

So, well... any opinions on it? I'm very much interested in them, both from het readers/writers and slash readers/writers. Did I offend anyone (if I did, I'm really, really sorry and would like you to point out to me where that was so I can go and change or at least try and explain it... I really did not mean to offend anyone)? Am I overreacting? Is there a flaw in my reasoning? Please tell me :)

ETA: Damn, now I want to find out where she publishes her stuff to see how much "non-heteronormative" it really is. Because the fact that there are two guys in a sex scene/romance story doesn't automatically mean it's not a heteronormative story...

Comments

[stinastina.livejournal.com]

I used to read slash, but I'm not in fandom anymore. But anyway, here goes: First of all, RPS is a big no-no. It creeps me out to no end, it's disrespectful, and if I were one of the actor's, I'd sue the authors' pants off.

Second, sexuality is fluid. Just because there's two pretty boys involved in the fun sexy times doesn't mean a woman can't get pleasure out of it. (Not my cup of tea personally, but everyone's different). Not to mention that there are a lot more options than just "one cis gendered woman and one cis gendered man".

The talk about revenge is... yeah. No. Revenge for what?

Writing under a male pseudonym is so 1800s anyway. ;)

[entchenmv.livejournal.com]

ich oute mich mal als Slash-Liebhaber... und kann über den Artikel nur den Kopf schütteln...

als wenn's den Slash-Liebhabern nur um Sex und Porno geht.

Also... the homosexual relationship solely as a substitute for an idealized heterosexual relationship?

vollkommener Quatsch... wenn ein weiblicher Chara nicht stark genug ist, dann liegt das am Schreiber, nicht daran, dass der Chara weiblich ist. -.-

[pingulotta.livejournal.com]

Huhu!
Ich bin die Oktaria aus dem ff.de-Forum. Ich wollte eigentlich endlich die verlinkte FF lesen, aber dann bin ich hier hängengeblieben und... nutze das grad mal als meinen Hallo-Kommentar. ;) (Hoffe, Deutsch ist okay)

Mir ist ziemlich viel im Kopf herumgespukt, während ich den Eintrag gelesen habe, aber was am Ende blieb waren ziemlich genau zwei Gedanken:
1) "Genau das ist einer der Gründe, warum ich Slash so lange nicht mal mit der Zeckenzange angefasst habe..."
2) "???"

1) ist nicht fair, zumal ich es heute weiß, dass es wirklich schöne und tolle m/m-FFs gibt und ich weder in f/f noch in het vor frauenfeindlichen Idioten sicher bin, aber... man sind mir da Erinnerungen gekommen!

Eigentlich halte ich mich im Fandom aus dem Feminismus raus (ich glaube, weil mir das Geschlecht von Charakteren, die ich mag, egal ist und ich mich generell weitestgehend aus dem Fandom raushalte ;)), aber das hier ist ja läääääängst nichts mehr, das nur auf ein Fandom beschränkt ist. Da sind Aussagen drin, bei denen ich mich frage, was die armen Frauen für ein verdrehtes Bild ihres Geschlechts haben müssen. Denn du hast völlig recht, was in dem Artikel erzählt wird, zeigt wie weit der Weg manchmal *wirklich* noch ist (und vor allem, dass es oft besonders die Frauen sind, die sich gegenseitig im Weg stehen).

Gut, dass Slash in vielen Fällen nur eine Übertragung heterosexueller Dynamiken auf zwei Männer/zwei Frauen ist, ist nichts neues, aber... zu sagen, dass man das macht, um die heterosexuellen Beziehungen zu idealisieren, weil ja bloß zwei Männer auf Augenhöhe miteinander sein können?
Bilde ich mir das nur ein, oder schließt sich das gegenseitig schon wieder aus?

Was ich aber wirklich, wirklich traurig an der Aussage finde, dass Frauen und Männer nicht auf "Augenhöhe Sex haben können", ist dass es uns um so irrsinnig viele Jahre in die Zeit zurückwirft, in der darüber debattiert wurde, ob denn Frauen überhaupt dazu in der Lage wären, Lust am Sex zu verspüren (vielleicht gehe ich damit aber auch zu weit, es ist nur das erste, was mir dazu einfiel).
Das im Zusammenhang mit diesem verdrehten Stolz, die eigene Lust am Sex so freizügig zu zelebrieren und dafür einzustehen... ich weiß nicht, irgendwie fühle ich mich da gerade abgehängt.
Außerdem, ja, dieser lesbische Pinguin sagt: Homosexualität zu nehmen, um Heterosexualität zu idealisieren ist nicht nur sowas von falsch, sondern es regt mich auch noch so auf, dass mir fast die Luft wegbleibt (und ich bin erstaunt, dass es immer noch Dinge gibt, die mich in dem Bezug so treffen können).

Von Slash als "Rache am Mann" will ich gar nicht erst anfangen........ da wäre ich nächstes Jahr noch am Tippen (nicht, weil ich nicht weiß, worauf sie hinauswill, sondern weil ich es einfach FALSCH finde Charaktere/Menschen egal welchen Geschlechts so zu instrumentalisieren - erst recht in RPF, die sowieso bestenfalls dunkelgrau ist).

Puh, sorry... ich glaub, ich hab mich ein klitzekleinesbisschen um Kopf und Kragen geredet... ;)
Liebe Grüße dir!

(P.s.: Hättest du was dagegen, wenn ich deiner Twitterei folge? =))

[afteriwake.livejournal.com]

This just...this makes no sense. How can two people talk for an entire legion of slash writers in multiple fandoms? I don't write slash very often outside of the Buffyverse, but I never wrote slash as a substitute for heteronormative relationships. I primarily write het, and I also tend to use strong female figures who hold their own against the men they are paired with. It's something I look for in any het work I read, whether it's het fic or a romance novel or any novel that involves a relationship between a man and a woman. I gravitate towards those types of stories.

It bothers me that they talked to someone who writes RPS as their main slash writer just as much. Yes, there are a lot of RPS writers out there, but most of the slash authors I know won't touch it with a ten foot pole out of respect for the people being played around with. If you're going to talk to slash authors about slash fanfiction, talk to someone who writes more than just RPS. It's like talking to someone who writes RPF about their interpretation of het fanfiction: they aren't going to be able to speak for the thousands and thousands of people who don't write RPF. I certainly know they wouldn't speak for me.

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

My feminism and my fem/slash writing have nothing to do with each other, as far as I can tell - I write fem/slash because I want to see more gay characters, or I want my marine lieutenant/FBI agent/starfleet captain to be gay and I don't get it from the mainstream media, or because I think these two characters are gay/bi and should be together or... But not because I want to make a feminist statement, even if I'm writing femslash. Even with my ladies big bang where I'm thinking of writing it with minimal male characters on-screen.

On the other hand, she's entitled to her opinion about why she does it - I just wish she wouldn't try to make it sound like it must be true for the rest of us!