Meta fandom and nationality.

[gelbes_gilatier]

After watching several minor and major fails and catastrophies of various topics (LGBT, race, gender...) and the discussion of privilege and non-privilege and whatnot unfold in the last few weeks, I'm finally starting to realize what's bothering me so much about it:

The overwhelming American dominance and the almost automatic assumption that what's considered privilege and what has to be considered as fail is the American definition of it. It's an almost unchallenged preset that we're all talking about what constitutes a gender fail or a race fail and also a LGBT fail by American standards and that everyone should just discuss it under those presets.

And yes, this is bothering me because I'm not American and I'm not even a native speaker of English and yes, for me it's sometimes pretty hard to understand why something constitutes a fail. Race, for example, has a whole different meaning for us Germans. We don't even like to use that word. We're way more comfortable with "ethnic background" for example because our grandparents used the word "Rasse" (which is a direct translation of the English word race) as something connected with industrialized mass murder and a World War and it probably will forever be etched into our minds like that.

We're also very sensitive to race in general, just probably not in the way that Americans are. Yes, I know I'm starting to sound redundant but please take in account here that Germany is the country that started and lost two World Wars and the country that perfected industrial mass murder, only a little more than 65 years ago. This thing shaped our country and our national mentality more than any other event ever has (it's even going so far that left-wing activists see nothing wrong with tearing down a German flag that was hung up by a family of Near-Eastern immigrants/first generation Germans during the World Cup). We're so oversensitive about our Nazi past that we get scared by German flags being put up on display during events like the World Cup and by people wearing black-red-golden leis around their necks.

So the thing we're most afraid of is being called a Nazi (unless one actually is one... BTW, here in Germany, being a Nazi and showing it is a crime... you can get arrested for wearing a Swastika or showing the Hitler salute in public... no, I'm not kidding you, we don't take this lightly here) which is why we also try to find lots of correct names for people who come from an ethnic background other than "white" (which, by the way is not a category we use - we rather think in national backgrounds than skin color, like "the Turks" or "the Russians") but which is also why we don't like to address this specifically in fics or such.

I never specifically said any of the characters in my stories are of color not because I automatically assume everyone in my stories is Caucasian but because I don't see a reason to specifcally state that (since if you automatically assume all my characters are Caucasian, it's your problem, not mine) and I don't like to make a fuss about that particular topic, also because of my national heritage... something that American people like to dismiss way too easily in not even assuming their opposite could be of another nationality and therefore have a completely different upbringing.

Another thing is LGBT... in Germany, the usual approach is now "Who cares?" It's different with my parents' generation but my generation and most of all the generations coming after us grew up with top ranking politicians being openly gay (the mayors of Berlin and Hamburg for example, or our current Foreign Minister) and top media people being openly gay (for example Anne Will, one of the leading ladies in the business of high profile political talk shows). At first their coming out caused a minor sensation but after about a week it wasn't like "Oh my God, Wowereit can't be mayor of the national capital because he's gay!" but "Is he good enough a politician to battle all the issues the conservatives left for him?" and his sexuality never was an issue regarding his political skills.

There's also no such thing as DADT in the Bundeswehr (which of course doesn't mean gay soldiers aren't being discriminated against by their fellow soldiers but at least they aren't kicked out, simply for being gay) or any other government institution. There's a national law that allows gay people kind of getting married (heterosexual marriages still hold a number of privileges but I'm pretty sure that will change) and homosexuality lost its general "EWWW!"-appeal ages ago.

So yes, maybe for you Americans I'm discussing LGBT issues from a privileged position... but did you just once think about the fact that I may come from a country that doesn't make such a big fuss about it anymore? It's more like "Oh, hey, jeder nach seiner Facon, ne." ("Everyone can live after their own fashion." - you may also know it as "To each their own." but I have an inner barrier to use that sentence... every half-way educated German knows that "Jedem das Seine" (which is the direct translation) is what you'll find at the gates of Buchenwald, just as you'll find "Arbeit macht frei" ("Work sets you free") at the gates of Auschwitz) here than "Oh, this is really such a general problem." I'm not saying LGBT persons aren't discriminated against here, they still are on multiple levels. But I never got called on for speaking from a privileged position by a German LGBT person and I did some pro-LGBT political work while I was still active (so I had a lot to do with persons who see themselves as LGBT).

We don't inquire and we don't make a fuss about it because we a) think that sexuality is something very private and one shouldn't pry and b) that it shouldn't be our primary cursor to judge character (exemplary conversation between my mom and I: "Have you heard? Robbie Williams is probably gay." - me: "Yeah... so?" - my mom: "Oh, right. Doesn't matter for his singing, anyway."). This is why I think any SGA character's sexuality shouldn't be of an issue to the show (well, along with the fact that yes, it does reek a lot like a publicity stunt to do it now instead of actually addressing it within the show and its five Seasons but that's another story)... because for us it's irrelevant to the achievments of a character. I don't know any German LGBT person who likes being judged by or for their sexuality in any way, and that also includes automatically being an "underprivileged person". In fact, most of them resent always being made into victims with this.

So you know what... if you're American and you're trying to tell me I'm speaking from a privileged position, no matter what the issue is... maybe next time you'll try not to speak from your privileged position as the dominant nation in nearly every major (and a lot of minor) fandoms (and meta fandom). It's something that's rarely, if never addressed (I recently saw a posting by someone from Norway regarding this that I was so thankful for but unfortunately, I lost the link before I could bookmark it) and yes, it's starting to bug me. There are differences between our views of the world and just because I'm from Germany it doesn't make them any less valid.

Also, and this my last word on it, you Americans might all want to rethink your usage of the word "Nazi" in international context (and yes, that includes fandom). It's a real insult here because here it doesn't stand for an anal-retentive person but for someone who supported, supports or would have supported industrialized mass murder... not something anyone of you would like to be affiliated with, is it? Like I said before, we don't take kindly to anything related to that issue and most of all we don't find it funny (which is why The Sun's headlines before the England vs. Germany game in the WC caused a minor uproar here). We're very self-conscious about how the world views us and we're very eager to please and to see that we don't come across as Nazis. We'd be kind of thankful if you wouldn't all throw around that term as carelessly as you often enough do.

And now go and defriend me if you like.


ETA: If anyone of you is really interested in what constitutes being a German, have a look at the Meet The Germans project of the Goethe-Institut London. Also, now I'd love to know if there are similiar projects by Spanish, English, French, American, Canadian, Guamaltecan or whatever other nation's institutions. Anyone can tell me anything about it?

ETA II: Now that I submitted the link to fandomnews: Just be aware of the fact that I don't tolerate any flaming whatsoever here. I reserve the right to freeze and/or delete comments. And everyone try to read your comment again before posting it, to see if you're still caught up in your nationality privilege (i.e. seeing everything the way you're used to and not even taking in account that this could be seen as offense by persons of a different nationality).

I'm really tired of having to tolerate and adapt to the views of people from other nationalities when apparently a number of those people don't take care to at least tolerate and respect that I have a number of different views because I come from a different national background. It's really not that hard. I've been doing that since I became active in fandom. If I can do it, you can do it, too.

Comments

[gelbes-gilatier.livejournal.com]

This doesn't invalidate the American experience

I never meant to say that and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Of course you have very valid points and of course I don't want to say you shouldn't discuss issues. I think the real issue is that we have another way to discuss. We don't operate with "privileges" because a lot of Germans feel that the whole privileges discussing thing makes it nearly impossible to have a truly democratic discussion.

For us, it's more important that a point is logical, not who it's coming from. The whole privileges thing feels alien to us. I have a feeling that it would be very hard to live in the US for me because I'd probably end up with my foot in my mouth every other day because of that. If we offend you it's not necessarily because we don't care or want to insult you. Often enough it's just because we have a completely different way of thinking.

Hrm, I don't know if I'm making any sense with this but maybe it explains why I was missing havoc's point. The whole privileges thing is obviously more alien to me than I thought. I guess I didn't see the homophobia thing because in a country where the institutional approach is "Who cares?" battling homophobia happens on a personal level (e.g. when I catch someone in my circle of friends making derogatory remarks), not on a general institutional level.

For better or worse, it's going to come up in fandom.

And that's not a problem. We have a lot of discrimination problems here as well. In the case of LGBT for example, institutional discrimination is down to a minimum (there are for example some things in family law and inheritance law that need urgent ironing out) but it doesn't mean there's no discrimination at all. So yes, we understand that it's an issue... but what I'm asking for is that it's accepted by Americans that we have a different way of discussing it and that this way of discussing it isn't simply dismissed because it's not the American way. As you might have noticed in pingulotta's comment, here it's actually considered rude to say LGBT persons are "underprivileged" - that explains a lot why I don't like to discuss that way, doesn't it?

Also, as far as SGA goes... the American bias bugs me in a completely different field as well. Atlantis was always an international project and when I started watching it, I also did so in the hope that the Stargate franchise on the whole would become more international, just as its fandom. However, five seasons and the only recurring character coming from a non-English speaking country was Radek (or did I miss someone?). Everything else was strictly in American, Canadian and British hands.

And so is the vast majority of fanfics. There are a handful of really beautiful Miko fics and I think I also found a few that had a focus on Radek and a very beautiful Five Things fic that includes a German soldier but beyond that... the only other English Stargate fics that feature a protagonist not from an English-speaking country that I know are my own :S Maybe I just failed at finding them but... I wish more people were writing characters from non-English speaking countries (beyond Miko and Radek, I mean), and most of all not from America.

As someone who had to do an enormous amount of research and needed years to get behind at least parts of American mentality to be able to write American characters the right way (and enjoyed it - really, I have a sociological background, I love doing the whole mentality thing), I sometimes do feel myself wishing Americans in the SGA fandom would feel the same enthusiasm for getting into the heads of people from other countries and enjoy digging their way through pop culture, history and politics from those countries, just to write characters from those countries the right way.

I'd love to read a well researched story about a Spanish technician or a South African scientist or yes, a German soldier, most of all if it was written by an American. It's so pleasing to see someone just getting it right who had to work hard for it and did it anyway because they were enjoying it (which is why I love freifraufischer's stories so much ;)).

Erm... did that make any sense?

[melyanna.livejournal.com]

I'm going to go out on a limb and ask what you interpret "privilege" in this context to mean. I'm honestly not certain, and reading your other English comments in this post has caused me to wonder if we're talking across each other by not using words in the same way. (I'd read the German comments too, but my German is horribly, horribly rusty and I am way too tired after the day I've had.)

My understanding of privilege in this context is that you don't belong to a group that experiences some kind of discrimination. I am privileged in that I am Caucasian. I don't have to deal with racism directed at me. It's not part of my life. I do have to deal with sexism, though, because I lack a different privilege (being male).

Privilege gives you blinders; it makes you less aware of how other people might perceive something. Knowing what your perspective is and where your blind spots are helps you to examine things more fairly. It helps me to say "I have a problem with this show because there are no people of color in it" even though I'm not a person of color nor personally affected by that kind of racism.

And I'm curious, because your descriptions of European attitudes sort of amaze me – have you really never experienced this? I mean, I hear stories on American news about France wanting to ban the hijab and it sounds like discrimination to me. I've also seen news stories about anti-immigrant fervor in parts of Europe. Wouldn't you say that a woman native to France who isn't a Muslim has some sort of privilege? Her religious choices aren't questioned and she doesn't face anti-immigrant prejudice. Her world view is colored by that. In order to understand that anti-immigrant prejudice is a problem, she first has to think about the situation as though she didn't have the privilege of being French by birth.

I do sort of wonder if the difference in perspective lies in how our two countries dealt with their acts of atrocity. Germany tried its war criminals and punished even relatively low-ranking people who worked in concentration camps. This didn't happen in the US. No white slaveowner was put on trial for owning slaves. The focus after the Civil War was putting the country back together, which meant that not even Robert E. Lee, the Southern general who dcided that Virginia's rights as a state were more important than a black man's rights as a human being, was tried for treason. He and other Confederates were deprived of the right to vote, but in 1868, Andrew Johnson issued a blanket pardon of anyone who had rebelled against the United States in the war. Lee should have been hanged for his treason. The sad thing is, that opinion is still rather heretical in this country.

There was no moment where we as a country stood up and said that slavery was wrong. Desegregation was fought tooth and nail, a century after the Civil War. We're still not free of these attitudes, and that's why the idea of privilege is so important in American discussion – we only get past these problems when we acknowledge that they exist, when we acknowledge our own privilege. For better or worse, some of these problems won't be solved unless enough people who are privileged not to be black or female or disabled recognize that there is a problem.

I've strayed far afield from the point of your comment. To be honest, I have no idea what your way of discussing these problems is. It seems that your preference is not to discuss these problems. I'm hoping this isn't the case.

I also apologize if any of this has come off as patronizing. I honestly don't know where you're coming from here, and I want to make sure I've been as clear as possible with my arguments.

(As an aside, yes, the America-centrism of SGA fandom is pretty overwhelming at times, but it's not been my experience that this is always the case. I was in Harry Potter fandom for a little while, and I knew of a lot of American fans who went to great lengths to make their stories feel as British as possible. But fans tend to stay relatively close to canon characters, and the lack of prominent European, African, and Asian characters in fics probably has more to do with the lack of such characters on the show, rather than with the attitudes of American fans.)

[gelbes-gilatier.livejournal.com]

My understanding of privilege in this context is that you don't belong to a group that experiences some kind of discrimination.

That was also my understanding. However... that doesn't quite work for me. I'll try to show you in one or two fictional examples (because thank God I didn't have this happening to me yet but I also know that it's not impossible):

Example #1: Berlin has a few neighborhoods where the majority of the inhabitants are Turkish or of Turkish descend. It’s possible for a German w/o migration background to walk through those neighborhoods and get insulted with for example getting told that "German girls have much loser morals than Turkish girls" both by men and women. So when a woman of Turkish descends tells me that… no, I don't want to go through a list of privileges and non-privileges first... I want to call it what it is: racism.

Example #2: A lot of neo-Nazis are from non-privileged backgrounds: working class, families who have been living off social welfare for years... When one of them starts bitching about the damn Turks, I don't want to think about privileges and non-privileges (because, as a middle class kid, I am much more educated and thus privileged than they are)... I want to call them what they are: stupid racist assholes that have learned nothing from history.

(and here I’d wanted to answer the burqa thing but you know, 4300 chars max and all that… do you want me to specifically answer this as well?)

I do sort of wonder if the difference in perspective lies in how our two countries dealt with their acts of atrocity.

I think you're right with that. In Germany, we aren't taught that we are privileged (b/c how can you tell a class that's 90% kids w/ migration background who don't even speak German properly that they're privileged?) and have to be conscious of it.

We're taught that persecuting and killing people just b/c they're different is bad b/c it led to 55 millions dead after 6 years of war and 12 years of industrialized mass murder. We're taught that the most important thing to remember is that we're all humans and that racism, sexism etc. develop out of fear of the “other”.

I gather this is because we learned that the easiest way to persecute and kill all different kinds of people is to dehumanize them and make people afraid of them, like the Nazis dehumanized and made people afraid of the Jews, homosexuals, communists, people with disabilities... We're taught "Nie wieder Faschismus, nie wieder Krieg.", not "Examine where you're privileged and how recognizing those privileges can help you to see the other's point of view."

It seems that your preference is not to discuss these problems. I'm hoping this isn't the case.

No, it isn't. We just have a different way to talk about it. When s/o is being racist, like bitching about the "Ausländerkriminalität" ("non-German crime rate") people will rather call them on it with "Look at the statistics and you'll see that you're wrong. Most of those "criminals" are people applying for asylum that didn't remember to stay in the county they're supposed to stay and that rule is stupid anyway. You wouldn't like that either.” than "You're a German w/o a migration background. That makes you privileged which is why you haven't been able to see until now that making people applying for asylum for political or economical reasons stay in one county is unfair and stupid. Try to see it from their point of view."

I also apologize if any of this has come off as patronizing.

You didn't. I never realized how not prosecuting the people responsible for the Civil War has shaped your country and that this influence is still enduring. It does make a few things clearer now. However... I think that just because we come from different traditions and look at things a different way, it doesn't make either discourse less legitimate than the other.

Rest assured that we all agree that sexism is bad, that racism needs to stop, that people shouldn't be discriminated because of their sexual orientation, their gender, their ethnic background... we just use different ways to identify discrimination (even though we come to the same conclusion in the end) and to realize when we ourselves fell victim to stereotypes.

[gelbes-gilatier.livejournal.com]

Hrm, addition to my first post because of the 4300 chars max and because I had it as an afterthought:

I think the main difference between the German (and probably European but I don't want to speak for any other country since cultural differences between European countries are probably graver than cultural differences between for example federal American states) way of thinking and the American way of thinking is that we kind of skip the whole self-evaluation thing (like, you know, "I'm a German without a migration background, I'm middle class, I'm East German, I'm a woman, I'm from an urban background...").

The privileges thing baffles us and would for example make us go "What does me being a German without migration background have to do with recognizing that not inviting someone to a job interview because they look like or their name sounds like they're of Turkish descend is wrong? Why do I have to acknowledge that I don't have a migration background first when I know full well that stereotyping is bad without it? Huh?"

Or "Why do I have to acknowledge I'm straight to be able to recognize gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples? This is the 21st century, of course I know that family and love are possible with all kinds of constellations. What does my sexual orientation have to do with that?"

We just take it as a given that not treating people who are equal equally is wrong, no matter where we stand. Well, mostly... at least we've come far enough that men are able to recognize that the fact that women still make 25% less than men on average in their wages is a bad thing without first having to point out to them that this is a problem for the whole of society, not just for women.

There's still a lot of discrimination on various levels and of various groups but apparently, we kind of skip the whole consious self-assessment of where we stand before pointing out a discrimination. Maybe that's really the biggest difference.

[melyanna.livejournal.com]

The privileges thing baffles us and would for example make us go "What does me being a German without migration background have to do with recognizing that not inviting someone to a job interview because they look like or their name sounds like they're of Turkish descend is wrong? Why do I have to acknowledge that I don't have a migration background first when I know full well that stereotyping is bad without it? Huh?"

Because you being a German without a migration background may mean you don't think about the Turkish guy not getting a job interview and why he doesn't. Because me being straight may mean I don't think about non-straight people not getting representation in pop culture and why that happens.

The privilege discussion is not about giving you a right or ability to address an injustice. It's about getting you to look beyond your experience to see injustices that don't affect you. You have to know that there's a problem before you can do anything about it. In my own experience, I have found that it's really easy to not see problems if you're not making an effort to see what others are experiencing.

[gelbes-gilatier.livejournal.com]

It's about getting you to look beyond your experience to see injustices that don't affect you.

Yes but... I know that not inviting people to a job interview because their name sounds Turkish or Russian or whatever else is wrong. And I know that without ever having had gone through the whole "I'm German without a migration background etc." thing. No one ever explicitely told me that this makes me privileged and I didn't have to "find out" that in order to judge what's discriminating and what isn't.

I also don't have to tell myself (or have anyone else have to tell me that either) that being supposedly straight makes me privileged to see that gay marriages have to have 100% the same rights that mixed-gender marriages (or just any couples, gay or straight, married or not married) have. I know that instictively because I was brought up to believe in the equality of all human beings, no matter their ethnic background, gender, sexual orientation, whatever and that also enables me to see when people that should be treated equally aren't treated equally, without having to see who's privileged and who's not.

Empathy (which, in the end is what the whole privileges thing is about if I got that right?) was part of that education as well (my mom really likes the Native American saying "Don't judge a man before you've walked a mile in his moccasins." and I guess she tried to bring us up that way), so it's nothing strange to me and I know why it's so important to you (in fact, I usually am one of the biggest advocates of "Just because Americans don't think like you, it doesn't make their way of thinking any less valid. They have a different upbringing and they have different ways of discussing issues. Just different, not less valid." whenever the topic of Americans always trying to make everyone see the world from their - and only their - perspective comes up).

However... recently I feel myself growing tired of trying to walk in American moccasins because even after years of doing it they don't really fit and all wearing them does is make my proverbial feet hurt. I keep wishing that just for once... Americans would try to wear my moccasins.

No offense, but I still have the feeling you're wearing your American moccasins and you're trying to make me keep wearing American moccassins that don't fit really well. As rareb's (who, by the way, is Swiss who went to university in French speaking Switzerland) comment showed, it appeared that you also were wearing the American moccassins when talking about the burqa ban in France... not the French moccassins. What she said in her posting is the French moccassin. You see that it's completely different from what you thought how a French woman might think?

This what the whole posting is about: asking Americans to wear the moccassins of the people from other nations they're talking to, at least for a mile. Nothing else.

(and now I promise I won't ever wear any other figure of speech out like I just wore out the moccassins...)

[rareb.livejournal.com]

Hm... the french case is kind of an unfortunate example, because France has historically chosen the complete opposite interpretation of religious freedom than the USA has. It's not up to me to judge which one is better - both respect human rights and both have their pros and cons.

Anyway - France is a fundamentally secularized country and has been like this for over 200 years (ever since the revolution). It's part of the French understanding of nationality that faith and religion are private and that the state has to be strictly secular. You would never hear something like "God bless you" from a French official or he or she would be in trouble for saying it. This counts for all religions without exception. People acting as authority for the country don't display their religion - displaying religious symbols in public is viewed with suspicion.

Historically, this had been France's way of breaking the catholic hegemony over their country - and they have also used this approach as a way to integrate foreigners. Everyone can become French easily - all he or she has to do is to accept the fundamental rules of French culture: democracy, the French language and secularness.

The French can be totally different from each other individually - but these principals are sacred. Either you accept them or you leave the country. This has been their way to deal with diversity. It's not up to me to judge it.

It's understandable in historical context - France has been one of the first states that combined state territory and nation (one territory, one nation, one language) in the 19th century - but they made it easy for minorities to become French themselves in the same time. The French nation doesn't run in the blood (contrary to the German, for example), but in basic cultural rules. You are on the territory, you speak French, you accept democracy and secularness - you're French.

Maybe this helps to understand the situation. It's not without its problems. But I don't think many French people would understand the american preoccupation with "privilege" in this context. It's no privilege to be French.

Concidering this background, it's easily understood why the French could feel offended by a striking public display of something that's seen as private affair by the majority of people (i.e. a burka). Especially, since (gender) equality is exceptionally important in France (as part of democracy), even for western European standards. The burka is considered a sign of female oppression by many leading feminists (and other thinkers) in the country. (I don't try to defend this point of view. Personally, I'm against such bans in general, as they don't adress the real issue - but I can understand how people can come to this conclusion.)

Also, many western European countries have turned from countries of emmigration into countries of immigration in a historically very short period. It's not easy to adapt to such fundamentally new circumstances. Particularly, when your nation has been living on the territory for centuries and has prided itself for its special and highly elaborate culture.